Solution Spotlight: Progress on the National Cyber Workforce and Education Strategy.
Liz Stokes: [Music] Seeyew Mo is Assistant National Cyber Director at the Office of the National Cyber Director at the White House. Our own N2K President, Simone Petrella, recently caught up with Seeyew Mo. Here's their conversation. [ Music ]
Simone Petrella: All right. Well, I am so thrilled to have Seeyew Mo from the White House here today. And for context for everyone listening, in July of 2023, so just about last year this time, ONCD, the Office of the National Cyber Director, put out the National Cyber Workforce and Education Strategy. So, Seeyew, to kick things off, we're about a year in. How are we doing on progress on the strategy?
Seeyew Mo: Well, good to see you, Simone. Really admire your work. I've been following your work for quite some time now, so I really appreciate the opportunity.
Simone Petrella: I'll take the compliment every time. [ Laughter ]
Seeyew Mo: Well, I really appreciate the opportunity to kind of talk about what we're trying to do here at the White House on cyber workforce and education. And you are right, time flies. I mean, the strategy has been out for almost a year, not quite. And we are really excited to kind of give, like, a progress report about what we're doing, how we're doing. But I can't stress enough that, I say this all the time, I want it to be repeating again, is that the White House Office of National Cyber Director, ONCD, is not the first office that is trying to solve the cyber workforce and education issue. A lot of people have been doing a lot of good work throughout the years. So, you know, I just want to stress that, you know, we're not the only one and we're not doing this alone. It's just always good to start off by acknowledging all the good that's been done and then talk about how we can collectively move everything forward together.
Simone Petrella: So I think one of the things that I'd love to sort of kick off on is that there is, you know, a progress report that you are all looking to release here in the coming days. Can you tell us a little bit about what we can expect to see as that report becomes public?
Seeyew Mo: Yes. Yeah, for sure. The report essentially reaffirms that the foundation of solving the national cyber workforce and education issue is sort of like tips all of us. You know, we are talking about what we are doing as part of the national cyber workforce education strategy, which I will call is a mouthful, which I will call the strategy from now on. So what the strategy is prescribing is that, you know, there are three broad issues in what we're facing today, right? Not enough Americans are considering a career in cyber or cybersecurity. They either don't see someone like them in the field or they don't know anyone who are in the field or they always assume that it's a narrow and technical role. Like, you know, the old cliché of, like, the guy in a hoodie, you know, hacking and defending in the dark room kind of thing. Right. So that's one issue. And the second issue is training and education opportunities have not been able to keep up with the demand. Right. So that's the second issue. And the third issue is the idea that we don't have enough locally driven collaboration to connect people to jobs, connect people to training, or provide wraparound services so that workers can get the support that they need to actually pursue a cyber career. So what you will see in this report is sort of like a narrative on some of the progress that we have made on all of these three areas. Right? I can go into more detail later on, but just to sort of, like, frame the conversation here is that, you know, from the federal government standpoint, ONCD is coordinating with 34 other federal agencies so that we are all doing this collectively. And then we are also working with non-federal government organizations, right, like, contraceptive employers, academia, state, local, and territorial governments to actually, you know, move the ball forward together. And we have commitments from over 100 organizations. So, you know, I can go into a little bit more detail. But what folks should expect to see is some progress on those three broad areas. And then a narrative on what are some of the priorities that we have in the future in regarding to those three areas.
Simone Petrella: One of the things and see, you know, this is very near and dear to my heart.
Seeyew Mo: Yeah.
Simone Petrella: But from the spring, there's been a lot of releases coming out of the White House and then subsequent reporting on the emphasis on a skills based approach for employers, but also the federal government. And I was hoping, you know, you could sort of provide a bit of explanation and clarification on what does it mean to do a skills based approach in cyber and what does that mean from an ONCD perspective?
Seeyew Mo: Sure. Yeah, I think many of us always relate skill based approach to only skills based hiring. Right? I think I want to kind of put a stop to this with the hey, it's actually more than hiring. But oftentimes the work starts at hiring, right? Because when we think about skill based approaches, we have to think about the skills that necessarily do a particular job, which lends itself to changes and updates in a job description, for example. It lends itself to changes in qualifications. Right? And all these different things. So, but what I want to kind of take a step back is to sort of ask a question, okay. Why are we doing skills based, right? The reality is a lot of Americans have certain skills and they have acquired either from a job or from a training, but they might not have an official certification or degree, right? So when you focus on skills, what we're doing is that we are making sure that we are not -- we are removing and lowering the barriers without lowering standards, right?
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: So that allows us to actually build the best team possible to achieve the mission that we want. So that's --
Simone Petrella: And so that makes a lot of sense. I mean, it makes a lot of sense because, you know, if you don't have that understanding of your requirements to begin with, how do you actually start the process, continue the process. Like, you can't implement it for anyone without doing that sort of foundational workload?
Seeyew Mo: That's right. So when we think about skills in the approach, it has to start from the very top, right? From a strategic level about what are the skills that we need to accomplish the mission? And let's figure out who -- you know, what level of employees and, you know, that has -- should, like, what kind of role should have what skills. Right? So that we believe gives you a more flexible way of thinking about talent and the pipeline. Right? So now. We're not going to get there right away. Right? And I think, you know, and I totally understand that as you're trying to promote skill based approaches all across the country, we realize that the federal government has to lead by example. And as you know, Simone, like, making changes in federal government is difficult, but there are areas when we kind of get a lot of people together. And that's why we, you know, worked with Office of Personnel Management, OPM, and Office of Management and Budget, OMB, and our 34 other federal agencies to sort of, like, hey, if there's a way for us to sort of get going, right, get as much of the processes converted to skill based approach, let's do it. And that's what we announced in April of this year at the White House convening for good paying, meaningful jobs in cyber, is let's take one occupation series in the federal government. So this is like the broad categories of jobs that affect a lot of the cyber workers. And we found that about 60 percent, a little bit more than 60 percent of cyber workers in the federal government is covered under the 2210 information technology and management series. So what we have decided collectively is the administration will modernize, right, the 2210 occupation series into skill based approaches, right? So that means, you know, we're going to try to go as far as we can, right? Starting from minimum qualifications, right, looking at roles and all these different things, right? Now, I don't want to sort of prejudge the actual outcome, you know, but to know that, you know, it's more than just hiring, it's the whole approach itself, right? So and the staffers are currently working really hard because we have a deadline. I'm sure that getting this done by the summer of 2025, right? But I hope, you know, folks will see a lot of the, you know, we're trying to adopt a lot of best practices. OPM is talking to the interagency. We are talking to the interagency as we try to set this up.
Simone Petrella: You know, given the deadline that's coming up for summer of 2025, you know, just to maybe dispel any concerns that anyone listening would have, that obviously sounds like a big deadline. But what, like, what's the volume of job descriptions that we're talking about here? Just because I want to kind of be able to make clear to an audience that, you know, it might not necessarily take you a year, even though the federal government for, you know, for a 100,000 occupation series positions.
Seeyew Mo: Well, what I would point out is a lot of all this work are ongoing. Right? And this is just like the culmination of it. And it's what I would say about, you know, about that. And then, like, for those who are listening, when you're making policy changes like that, we have to remember this is, you know, people's likelihood. Right? And like, you know, we want to do it right. We don't want to rush. We don't want to rush it. And we want to make sure that we follow the processes that we have in place. And then also we're talking a lot about, you know, like the 2210s exist in a lot of different departments and agencies.
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: So, you know, we want to make sure that everyone's equity is represented here. But I think the signal that we're sending right, like, the takeaway here is if an organization as large as the federal government is willing to do this, right, I think you know, all of us, right, organizations take a small all across the country. Not just in Washington, D.C. or the tech capitals around the country. My hope is everyone kind of comes together to really look at how they can take advantage of the benefits of skill based approaches and provide. Right? Think about the business objectives that you have, your -- the mission, the organization is trying to deliver. Think about the skills that you need as you come up with a workforce strategy, like, a talent plan that you have. And then think about how you can kind of create a pipeline, set up, like, the workforce mixture that you need, right? Like, not everyone has, you know, not everyone has to have, you know, not everyone has to be the most senior or technical person. It might be, like, you know, a mix, a combination of, like, some senior and, you know, entry level, right? So I feel like when you start thinking about skills that that's in that sense, that opens up how you think about your workforce, and then in turn change how you go about recruiting and retention, reskilling, and upskilling. Right? So that's, like, the key thing here that we're trying to push for is, yes, it's more than just about removing a degree requirement. Right? I happen to believe that degrees are extremely helpful. And, you know, I, you know, I have a degree myself. This is more about how can we take a more agile approach in thinking about skills and talent and workforce? And the benefit is it opens up pathways for more folks who might not have the right technical degree. You know, like, Simone, you and I, you know, we've seen some of these famous or popular cyber people, they are, like, philosophy majors, or, like, music musicians.
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: So, you know, if you think about like, hey, we need, you know, CS degree only, then you kind of miss out on all this other talent. Right? That's what we're pushing for.
Simone Petrella: I mean, I just want to like emphasize what you said right at the beginning. I think the takeaway is if the federal government can embark and sort of lead truly by example as the largest employer in the United States, then, you know, you should -- we should be able to do it in our own organizations, too, and take that step --
Seeyew Mo: Right.
Simone Petrella: -- and invest in it.
Seeyew Mo: Yeah. And, then, if you look at the way the federal government is invested, so here's the second takeaway for everybody, right? As the federal government and the Biden-Harris administration is making tons of investments across the country, right, across, you know, Chips and Science Bill, Inflation Reduction Act, right, and the bipartisan infrastructure law. Right? Just know that, you know, we also have complementary efforts to make sure that the American workers, right, the workforce are equipped to actually, you know, deliver on those investments. Right? And as part of that mixture, what we have done, you know, in the implementation of strategy is to align cyber workforce and education needs with all these investments. Right? When you think about it, right, as the world's getting more digitized, we are making an investment into, like, clean energy, right, battery manufacturing. We're going to need cyber folks to help protect manufacturing plant. We're going to need, you know, we're thinking about charging stations. We're going to need cyber security in charging stations. Right? Same thing with chips and science. Same thing with, you know, building a new wing in an airport. It will be cyber consideration. Right? So as part of that, ONCD is working and integrating and aligning this workforce strategy with all these other workforce efforts that we see from the federal government. And a couple of things that we'll point out, like, you know, just to, like, to go on the skill based approaches that we talk about is, you know, the Biden administration has invested about $440 million in registered apprenticeships. Now, not all $440 million is for cyber security. It's also for, like, you know, all of the high demand, in demand industries. But cyber security is one of the categories that we are pushing for. Right? And that type of on the job learning, right, on a work, you know, on the job training in which workers can earn and learn at the same time. And that's just like a variation of how we can provide quality pathways. But also another way to think about skills.
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: Because, you know, when you think about skills, then you realize, wait a minute, there are some skills that I really need when somebody start working. [Music] And then there are some skills that I can help develop once they join the organization. [ Music ]
Liz Stokes: We'll be right back. [ Music ]
Simone Petrella: [Music] One of the disconnects and challenges that, you know, I see and we see in some of our work, and I think the apprenticeships are like a great example of it, is we've started to make real progress on the entry level side, you know, and we had some recent data that was released out of CyberSeek that shows that we've actually for the first time started to see a surplus in entry level candidates. But, you know, is that because we've actually created more entry level candidates or are we actually not providing them enough opportunity to get into those jobs? And so --
Seeyew Mo: We ought to ask that questions, right? Because, you know, that's the missing middle, what --
Simone Petrella: Right.
Seeyew Mo: -- I call it, the missing middle issue here in the White House. And so I just want to kind of point out, right, I want to I want to thank LICAS for sort of, like, releasing that report because, you know, and you will see in our implementation, initial implementation report that is coming out is that LICAS made a commitment to the White House that they will be creating this skills report as part of their support of the strategy. Right? So that's just by the -- I just want to kind of make sure they get the call out because that's one example of, you know, the government cannot do it alone, it takes all of us. And in this case, we made a very deliberate approach when we released the strategy to know, like, hey, we do need more metrics. We do need to know more of why there are folks who have certifications and yet they haven't been able to get connected to a good pathway into a job yet. So, you know, kudos to LICAS with, like, delivering on the talent report for all of us, right, for the benefit of the whole ecosystem. So I appreciate that. Now, back to the original sort of, like, what you were saying, like, hey, we have to ask the question, are we creating so much more candidates for inter-level now, or are we artificially changing the work roles to sort of say, hey, we actually need instead of one person with, I don't know, two to five to eight years of experience with this skill and then everyone is going for that small pool of candidates. And this is what I tell companies all the time. Well, I know that all the employers, right, private and public, is that the entry-level employees today, the senior technical employees of the future, if we do not continue to grow and develop our entry-level employees, then the missing middle problem that we have, right, will continue to grow.
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: So you kind of have to think about, you know, you have to kind of balance, like, what you need today, and also what you need two to five years from now. Because you can already see what the trend line is, where the thing's going to go. So what we want to push for in skill-based hiring and approaches is like, hey, you consider changing maybe your entry-level roles, right? So you kind of move your roles, be more flexible in how you think about your roles so that there's a way for you to get more of these entry-level folks. There's a pathway for them to get new skills, then they become the next level senior talent that you need. And then also perhaps you need to kind of reassess your current senior talent role, right? Are they doing too much? You know, are they -- is it reasonable, right? Are you looking for the unicorn, right? Which, you know, based on the data so far, things like by and large, companies are looking for that unicorn.
Simone Petrella: Right.
Seeyew Mo: Because we see this as, like, [laughter] because, you know, the fact that people are getting paid a lot of compensation to move from, like, one sector to another, that's a proof point right there that, like, after someone hits that two to five year experience mark, they get recruited --
Simone Petrella: Yep.
Seeyew Mo: -- to everywhere else. That's a sign for companies to be, like, okay, we need to rethink this. And we think skill-based approach is the way to do it, coupled with things like register apprenticeships, cyber clinics, right, all these other stuff that we're doing to get more hands-on learning. But there's also a limitation on those programs, right, in terms of, like, you know, hands-on approaches we can do to get folks to the level that we need.
Simone Petrella: On that skill-based approach, I wanted to, like, also emphasize something you just said, because Rick Howard and I have this theory about how cybersecurity is actually, we're at like the beginning parts of the analogy to Moneyball, when the, like, Oakland A's baseball team had to field a, you know, team with a budget that was significantly less than the best teams in the world --
Seeyew Mo: Right.
Simone Petrella: -- like the Yankees. And so you can't buy your unicorns at that point. In fact, they lost all their unicorns. They're A players.
Seeyew Mo: Yeah.
Simone Petrella: And, you know, in cybersecurity, I think that the kind of the challenge that companies often struggle with are, you know, they're not all fielding the same amount of players. And so the positions are all slightly differently defined, if you like break down the skills. But we sometimes forget, like, that has to then get tied to their business objectives. And that's an opportunity --
Seeyew Mo: That's right.
Simone Petrella: -- that we have, because then you can say, what are the skills I need for my business objectives? How many people am I actually kind of creating to actually build out this capability? Now, let me think about how I can actually fill those with talent that either is in the pipeline, is existent in my workforce that I have to upscale, whatever else it may be.
Seeyew Mo: And that's the opportunity, right? Like, I know we talk about, like, hundreds of thousands of open jobs right now. They're, like, I don't know, tens of thousands of manufacturing, tens of thousands in health care, tens of thousands in utilities, right? So the opportunity here is if you do those analysis of what you need for your sector, that's a competitive advantage right there, because then you can kind of put the mixture together. Right? Now, perhaps you don't need the sort of like super senior, you know, pen tester that some sectors might need --
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: -- you know, depending on your sector. But there are some skills from pen testing that perhaps you need. And that, but that -- but then you're building up a profile of the people they are looking for or Google people they are looking for that are not necessarily the same people that you're competing against. I think that's why, you know, in our strategy, we sort of talk about 90 percent of the jobs will require some digital skills. And I think that you can take that analogy further by saying more and more jobs require cyber skills.
Simone Petrella: Yes.
Seeyew Mo: And even your job, you know, let's just say you're, like, a water utility. You're like, you know, a water engineer or whatever. There might not be a cyber in your title or your job description, but we think that you will have to do some of those work. Right? You know, on the flip side, right. It's, like, software engineer, you're not a cyber engineer, a software engineer, but, you know, you get, you know, like, what the National Cyber Security Strategy was saying, like we need to build more resilient and secure stuff. So in this way, like, software engineer is, while they're not cyber --
Simone Petrella: Yeah.
Seeyew Mo: -- security focused people, they can start doing things that are more resilient as well, right? Coding things are more resilient. So you can see a lot of all this analogy everywhere. I think that's it, right? Like, when you think about the key point, like, the key point of what we're trying to do here, and you see this misreported. The administration is taking a coordinated approach, a whole of nation approach, because these jobs exist in all different sectors, not all technical or not technical in a way that you envision it. Their technical could be in a water utility technical angle, right, or energy pipeline technical work there. But they're not the guy in the hoodie anymore. So that's the headline. So if that is what's happening, what are we doing to help? Well, we're elevating field based approaches. We're leading by example in the federal government. So you should do it too. And we're cooperating and partnering with private sector, academia, state and local government, you know, nonprofits, all these different organizations to all collectively get there, right, skills, skill based approaches, hands on learning. Think about, you know, reading about your work roles, right? How are you creating a pipeline on them so that we can remove barriers and broaden pathways for folks to join in? Then we talk about, you know, individual or regional differences, right, like, a job in, you know, Tampa, Florida, very different from San Antonio, Texas, very different from Washington, D.C., very different from like Boise, Idaho. So, you know, when you take a locally driven approach, you think about collectively, what do we need? What kind of skill sets are necessary in your region, right? Then that permeates to -- in an organization level one of the skills that I need for my business objectives, for my mission, then it permeates then to, oh, what are some of the on rent that we can get? So perhaps I need to partner with my local two year college or maybe even K-12 school districts to kind of figure out how can we get some of these foundational and basic training so that you have a pipeline of entry level employees. And then you think about, ooh, are we asking too much from our middle or senior level technical people? How do we readjust that? And how do I be a part of the training and education solution, right? Like, as a company or as an employer, you know, should I maybe partner with my four year for certification or should I partner with my trade association? So that collectively on the smaller side, you don't have resources, you're busy. Right? So perhaps the Trade Association has a work stream that can kind of support all the smaller players in a way that is beneficial for everybody. So you can kind of see the through line of all the skill approaches, but they are emanating in different ways. And then -- and all we do in the White House is we're convening, we're pushing on the same vision. But really what we have found is that many of the better solutions, good solutions come from businesses, they come from locally driven partnerships, right? Like, you know, I didn't go tell, you know, anybody to kind of merge water and cyber because anyone on my team or the administration, but some universities saw the opportunity and they're kind of, like, forming it. But what we do is we are spreading the gospel. Now, more schools are seeing like, oh, water and cyber, interesting. Every county has, like, a water treatment plant, you know, so that's something that is -- so that's like the exciting part of the work. And I hope that like, you know, the people who read our report will see the direction that we're taking and kind of join us in this work.
Simone Petrella: Since when this is this is published, the report should be available. Do you have a placeholder or a link where people can go access that report yet, or is it a TBD?
Seeyew Mo: Go to whitehouse.gov/cyber workforce. That's where you should track all our work. That's where all the commitments live. That's where all the strategy lives and the report will be on there as well. And then there's also a way for all of you to reach out to us. You know, if you scroll down to the web page, there is a form there. So if you have any ideas that you would like to pursue, or any on your project that you think is very aligned and you want to talk to it about -- talk to us about it. We always look for projects to highlight and elevate just because, you know, other people might be thinking about the same thing. And if they have to see an example working in a different region or in different sector, they might try to replicate it in their sector or in their region. [Music] And then collectively, we're that much better when we do so.
Simone Petrella: Awesome. Well, Seeyew, thank you so much for sharing updates on where things are with ONCD and the progress of the strategy. Exciting things to come.
Seeyew Mo: Thank you so much. And for those who are talking to your friends, make sure that they consider a career in cyber. [inaudible 00:28:26] meaningful, and then you will be helping defend the nation. Thank you.
Simone Petrella: There you go. Thank you.
Liz Stokes: That's Seeyew Mo, Assistant National Cyber Director in the office of the National Cyber Director at the White House. Speaking with our N2K President, Simone Petrella. [ Music ]
